Bug#1034248: release-notes: Document that GTK4 apps are not accessible with screen reader

[Jeremy Bícha]

Subject: release-notes: screen reader
Package: release-notes
Tags: a11y bookworm sid
X-Debbugs-CC: debian-gtk-***@lists.debian.org

Many GNOME apps have switched from GTK3 to GTK4. Sadly, GTK4 is much
less accessible with the Orca screen reader compared to GTK3.

If you depend on a screen reader, we suggest that you install a
desktop like MATE instead of GNOME.

Other Info
-------------
Debian Bookworm has GTK 4.8 and libadwaita 1.2. This issue is not
significantly improved yet even with GTK 4.10 and libadwaita 1.3. My
guess is that it won't be possible to fix this issue with Debian
Bookworm Stable Updates once it is fixed upstream because the amount
of changes will be too much. We hope that GTK4 apps will be accessible
for Debian Trixie.

There is a test case at
https://launchpad.net/bugs/2015760

Thank you,
Jeremy Bícha

[Debian Bug Tracking System]

tags -1 + patch

Bug #1034248 [release-notes] release-notes: Document that GTK4 apps are not accessible with screen reader
Added tag(s) patch.

[Holger Wansing]

Control: tags -1 + patch

I think, the text proposed in this report is almost fit for publication.
So I have prepared a patch based on that.


Holger

[Paul Gevers]

Hi Holger,

Thanks for doing the leg work.

On 27-04-2023 21:50, Holger Wansing wrote:
+ <title>Accessibility: GNOME GTK4 apps with reduced screen reader
support</title>
+ <para>
+ Many GNOME apps have switched from GTK3 to GTK4. Sadly, GTK4 is much
+ less accessible with the Orca screen reader compared to GTK3.
+ </para><para>

(Tiny nitpick, we normally put those ^ one two lines.)

+ If you depend on a screen reader and want to upgrade to &releasename;,
we suggest
+ that you install a desktop like MATE instead of GNOME.

I guess our recommendation also holds for new installs. So maybe leave
out the "and want to upgrade to bookworm" part?

Paul

[Holger Wansing]

Hi Paul,

Post by Paul Gevers
+ If you depend on a screen reader and want to upgrade to &releasename;,
we suggest
+ that you install a desktop like MATE instead of GNOME.
I guess our recommendation also holds for new installs. So maybe leave
out the "and want to upgrade to bookworm" part?

That part was not existing in the original report, but added by me :-)
so - yes, I guess your argument counts.


Holger

[Richard Lewis]

Post by Holger Wansing
Hi Paul,

+ If you depend on a screen reader and want to upgrade to &releasename;,
we suggest
+ that you install a desktop like MATE instead of GNOME.
I guess our recommendation also holds for new installs. So maybe leave
out the "and want to upgrade to bookworm" part?

I think this should be very high up - first <section> in the file,
rather than at the end - seems like this is going
to be a really big issue for some people.

Perhaps at least tell them how to switch to mate (eg: what package to
install - is it mate-desktop or is mate-desktop-environment needed for
accessibility - i assume the latter is better?)

And can we clarify "much less accessible" mean - doesnt work at all or
something less worrying? (i couldnt find anything
aimed at users on this)

also - is a switch to mate rally all that is needed - would you not
also need to switch away from every
GTK4 app as well?, or do apps under mate revert to GTK3 again?
Especially i would want to know: does Orca work under Mate? do any
settings copy across?
(i found a page on debian's wiki but it's not very illuminating -
hopefully because it all just works!)

Is it all screen readers (2nd para) or just orca?

Some minor word changes and markup suggestions:
(I wasnt sure if i have described GTK3/4 right - is it better to say
version 4 of GTK for example?)

<section id="gnome-has-reduced-accessibility-support-for-screen-readers">
<title>GNOME has reduced accessibility support for screen readers</title>
<para>
Many <literal>GNOME</literal> apps have switched from the
<literal>GTK3</literal> graphics toolkit to <literal>GTK4</literal>.
Sadly, this has made many apps much less usable with screen
readers such as <program>Orca</program>.
</para>
<para>
If you depend on a screen reader you should consider switching to
a different desktop such as
<ulink url="https://mate-desktop.org">Mate</ulink>, which has
better accessibility support. <!-- still vague - what does 'better'
really mean? -->
You can do this by installing the <sysitem
role="package">mate-desktop-environment</sysitem> package. <!--
anything else? -->
Information about how to use Orca under
Mate is available at <ulink
url="https://wiki.debian.org/Accessibility/Orca#MATE">here</ulink>.
</para>
</section>

Ideally someone who is affected by this would comment too - im sure
there are lots of questions that wouldnt occur to me that should be
included here.

[Paul Gevers]

Dear a11y users and experts,

In bug 1034248 [1] against the release notes it has been brought up that
GNOME isn't as accessible as it was before (I recall it already wasn't
great and a11y prefer MATE already). Can you please review and comment
on the proposed text below?

title: GNOME has reduced accessibility support for screen readers

Many GNOME apps have switched from the GTK3 graphics toolkit to GTK4.
Sadly, this has made many apps much less usable with screen readers such
as Orca.

If you depend on a screen reader you should consider switching to a
different desktop such as Mate, which has better accessibility support.
You can do this by installing the mate-desktop-environment package.
Information about how to use Orca under Mate is available on the Debian
Accessibility Wiki [3].

On behalf of the Release Notes editors
Paul

[1] https://bugs.debian.org/1034248
[2] https://mate-desktop.org
[3] https://wiki.debian.org/Accessibility/Orca#MATE.

[Paul Gevers]

Control: tags -1 pending

Hi,

For final review:

https://salsa.debian.org/ddp-team/release-notes/-/merge_requests/167

Paul

[Debian Bug Tracking System]

Post by Paul Gevers
tags -1 pending

Bug #1034248 [release-notes] release-notes: Document that GTK4 apps are not accessible with screen reader
Added tag(s) pending.

[Debian Bug Tracking System]

Your message dated Sun, 14 May 2023 19:58:58 +0200
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and subject line Re: Bug#1034248: release-notes: Document that GTK4 apps are not accessible with screen reader
has caused the Debian Bug report #1034248,
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