Discussion:
Bug#992025: release-notes: Add section on switching init system
(too old to reply)
Matthew Vernon
2021-08-09 10:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Package: release-notes
Severity: normal
Tags: patch

Hi,

Support for alternative init systems in bullseye is better than in
buster, but the process for switching is still a bit involved; I've
drafted a new subsection on the switching process. Could it be
included in the release notes, please?

Thanks,

Matthew

-- System Information:
Debian Release: 9.13
APT prefers oldstable
APT policy: (500, 'oldstable')
Architecture: amd64 (x86_64)

Kernel: Linux 4.9.0-16-amd64 (SMP w/8 CPU cores)
Locale: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_GB.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8), LANGUAGE=en_GB:en (charmap=UTF-8)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash
Init: sysvinit (via /sbin/init)
Justin B Rye
2021-08-09 12:10:01 UTC
Permalink
+ <section>
+ <title>
+ Switching Init System
+ </title>
+ <para>
+ The default init system in Debian is systemd. In bullseye, a
+ number of alternative init systems are supported (such as
+ System-V-style init and OpenRC). Generally, to switch between
+ init systems, you install the new init system and reboot. The
+ exception is switching away from systemd - systemd's packages
(We don't seem to be consistent about our em dashes.)
+ will refuse to be removed if systemd is running; so the
+ process is a little more involved.
+ </para>
+ <para>
+ In outline, you need to download the new packages you need,
+ switch to single-user mode, install these new packages, and
+ then reboot. The recommended approach is as follows. First,
+ clear out <filename>/var/cache/apt/archives</filename> by
+ running <literal>apt-get clean</literal> (this makes
+ identifying the packages to install later easier). Next, get
+ <literal>apt</literal> to download the new packages you need,
If you mean the whole package/dependency management system and not the
/usr/bin/apt executable then I'd recommend calling it APT. On the
other hand all of these commands do seem to work equally well with apt
rather than apt-get, including the "apt clean" above.
+ e.g.: <literal>apt-get --download-only install sysvinit-core
+ libpam-elogind</literal>; libpam-elogind (and elogind which it
+ Depends upon) provide session management facilities, which you
+ will likely need on any system running a desktop
+ environment. At this point, review apt's proposed actions, and
+ if happy, let it carry on.
With some extra markup, not all of which makes any actual difference,
and with s/apt-get/apt/g:

clear out <filename>/var/cache/apt/archives</filename> by
running <command>apt clean</command> (this makes identifying
the packages to install later easier). Next, get
<literal>apt</literal> to download the new packages you need,
e.g.: <command>apt --download-only install sysvinit-core
libpam-elogind</command>; <systemitem
role="package">libpam-elogind</systemitem> (and <systemitem
role="package">elogind</systemitem> which it Depends upon)
provide session management facilities, which you will likely
need on any system running a desktop environment. At this
point, review <literal>apt</literal>'s proposed actions, and
if happy, let it carry on.
+ </para>
+ <para>
+ Now switch to single-user mode (<literal>systemctl
+ rescue</literal>) and install the packages you downloaded
+ using <literal>dpkg -i</literal>; the packages will be in
+ <filename>/var/cache/apt/archives</filename>. Once dpkg has
+ completed, reboot your system.
+ </para>
(You could make this "apt install /var/cache/apt/archives/*deb"!)
+ <para>
+ If you encounter any issues specifically associated with using
+ an alternative init system, there is a Debian init system
+ diversity list (<ulink
+ who may be able to help.
+ </para>
+ </section>
</section>
I wouldn't call a mailinglist a "who", and I wouldn't introduce a
publicly archived list with just the To-address - perhaps make this

an alternative init system, help may be available from the <ulink
url="https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/debian-init-diversity/">Debian
init system diversity list</ulink>.
--
JBR with qualifications in linguistics, experience as a Debian
sysadmin, and probably no clue about this particular package
Holger Wansing
2021-08-09 13:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Justin B Rye
+ <para>
+ If you encounter any issues specifically associated with using
+ an alternative init system, there is a Debian init system
+ diversity list (<ulink
+ who may be able to help.
+ </para>
+ </section>
</section>
I wouldn't call a mailinglist a "who", and I wouldn't introduce a
publicly archived list with just the To-address - perhaps make this
an alternative init system, help may be available from the <ulink
url="https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/debian-init-diversity/">Debian
init system diversity list</ulink>.
That's not a lists.debian.org mailinglist.
So, is it ok, to call it a " Debian ... list" ?

Holger
--
Sent from /e/ OS on Fairphone3
Justin B Rye
2021-08-09 13:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Holger Wansing
Post by Justin B Rye
+ If you encounter any issues specifically associated with using
+ an alternative init system, there is a Debian init system
+ diversity list (<ulink
+ who may be able to help.
+ </para>
+ </section>
</section>
I wouldn't call a mailinglist a "who", and I wouldn't introduce a
publicly archived list with just the To-address - perhaps make this
an alternative init system, help may be available from the <ulink
url="https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/debian-init-diversity/">Debian
init system diversity list</ulink>.
That's not a lists.debian.org mailinglist.
So, is it ok, to call it a " Debian ... list" ?
In principle all we want to say is that it's a list named
"Debian-init-diversity" (because it's a list *about* Debian stuff).
We've expanded that name slightly by referring to it as the "Debian
init *system* diversity list", but if necessary it could just stick to

an alternative init system, help may be available from <ulink
url="https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/debian-init-diversity/">the
Debian-init-diversity list</ulink>.
--
JBR with qualifications in linguistics, experience as a Debian
sysadmin, and probably no clue about this particular package
Matthew Vernon
2021-08-09 14:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Thanks for your comments; I'll try and make a revised patch.
Post by Justin B Rye
+ init systems, you install the new init system and reboot. The
+ exception is switching away from systemd - systemd's packages
(We don't seem to be consistent about our em dashes.)
Sorry, I'm not sure if you're saying you want an em-dash instead of a
hyphen here, or if you don't think it matters?
Post by Justin B Rye
+ identifying the packages to install later easier). Next, get
+ <literal>apt</literal> to download the new packages you need,
If you mean the whole package/dependency management system and not the
/usr/bin/apt executable then I'd recommend calling it APT. On the
I in fact meant apt-get :)

Should I replace that with apt throughout? I tend to use apt-get for
everything myself.

Regards,

Matthew
Justin B Rye
2021-08-09 14:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin B Rye
(We don't seem to be consistent about our em dashes.)
Sorry, I'm not sure if you're saying you want an em-dash instead of a hyphen
here, or if you don't think it matters?
It probably doesn't matter.
Post by Justin B Rye
+ identifying the packages to install later easier). Next, get
+ <literal>apt</literal> to download the new packages you need,
If you mean the whole package/dependency management system and not the
/usr/bin/apt executable then I'd recommend calling it APT. On the
I in fact meant apt-get :)
Should I replace that with apt throughout? I tend to use apt-get for
everything myself.
These days apt is supposed to be the basic tool for use whenever there
isn't some reason to resort to something more specialised; most of the
Internet sources that mention apt-get do so only because of decades of
documentational inertia. (Speaking of which: I hadn't realised we
still had an APT User guide in https://www.debian.org/doc/user-manuals
with a 1998 last-modified date!)

On the other hand in this case we're not exactly writing this section
for an audience of inexperienced users who are keen early adopters of
the latest Debian standard...
--
JBR with qualifications in linguistics, experience as a Debian
sysadmin, and probably no clue about this particular package
Matthew Vernon
2021-08-09 17:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Thanks for the feedback; I've edited my patch in the light of your
comments (see attached). There's an MR on salsa, too:
https://salsa.debian.org/ddp-team/release-notes/-/merge_requests/119

Regards,

Matthew
Matthew Vernon
2021-08-09 17:00:04 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Sorry, correct patch this time :-/

Regards,

Matthew
Paul Gevers
2021-08-09 20:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Matthew Vernon
Hi,
Sorry, correct patch this time :-/
Regards,
Matthew
Short question (I'm low on time for this tonight): don't we have this
documented on the Wiki somewhere? It feels a bit long for the release notes.

Paul
Matthew Vernon
2021-08-09 21:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Gevers
Short question (I'm low on time for this tonight): don't we have this
documented on the Wiki somewhere? It feels a bit long for the release notes.
Not currently (I imagine something like it will end up there
eventually); I think it warrants being in the release notes because it's
quite a significant change from Buster (where non-systemd inits were
largely unusable on desktop systems).

Regards,

Matthew
Paul Gevers
2021-08-14 07:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Matthew,
Post by Matthew Vernon
Not currently (I imagine something like it will end up there
eventually); I think it warrants being in the release notes because it's
quite a significant change from Buster (where non-systemd inits were
largely unusable on desktop systems).
If that's the case, it makes more sense to mention it in the whats-new
section, keep it short and link to a wiki.

Paul
Matthew Vernon
2021-08-15 15:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Paul Gevers
Post by Matthew Vernon
Not currently (I imagine something like it will end up there
eventually); I think it warrants being in the release notes because it's
quite a significant change from Buster (where non-systemd inits were
largely unusable on desktop systems).
If that's the case, it makes more sense to mention it in the whats-new
section, keep it short and link to a wiki.
I'm not sure I really agree, but _something_ would be better than
nothing, so if that's what is necessary to get something into the
release notes, then how about the attached?

I've also opened
https://salsa.debian.org/ddp-team/release-notes/-/merge_requests/124 to
apply this.

Is that agreeable?

Regards,

Matthew
Debian Bug Tracking System
2021-09-23 14:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Your message dated Thu, 23 Sep 2021 15:54:31 +0200
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and subject line Re: Bug#992025: release-notes: Add section on switching init system
has caused the Debian Bug report #992025,
regarding release-notes: Add section on switching init system
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992025: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=992025
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